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  1. #701
    Schokolaaaadeeee!
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Lasst uns ne Partei gründen und den "HD-Führerschein" durchsetzen Ohne den darf man keine Blus kaufen.

  2. #702
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Bezüglich der fehlenden Features

    - "The Making of T2"
    - "T2: More than meets the Eye"
    - "The Making of T2:3D"
    - "No Feat But What We Make": All new documentary
    - "T2: On the Set": New retrospective Montage of Behind the Scenes Production Footage

    hat sich Van Ling mittlerweile geäußert:

    Die fehlen auf der Skynet-BD tatsächlich, wurden aber von Lionsgate in den USA (für die US-Disc) via BD-Live zum Download bereitgestellt (lediglich "T2: On the Set" fehlt noch).
    Van Ling hofft, dass dies auch in Europa von Imagion getan wird, kann aber nichts garantieren.

    Was sind denn die europäischen BD-Live-Inhalte zu der Skynet-BD?
    Gibt's da was Vernünftiges außer irgendwelchen Skript-Seiten?

  3. #703
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Im Van Lings Forum wurde eine große Stellungnahme Re: Noise Reduction geposted. Da der Forum gerade irgendwie Probleme macht, hier der gesamte Text nochmal:

    Let's start with some history...

    Note that T2 was shot in Super-35, which means it used a full-aperture 35mm film frame (with image exposed full-width, sprockets-to-sprockets, rather than losing over 10% of the image width to a soundtrack area as in the Academy aperture). However, because it's composed for a 2.35 aspect ratio, it's only using the center 57% of the available negative area for active, composed picture. The rest is available for recomposition in postproduction or when doing 4x3 video transfers (which are largely obsolete these days due to HD). This would lead to the obvious charge of a grainier picture than films not shot in this format, but while this charge is mathematically true, the quality of the image all depends on how good your filmmakers are --particularly the DP, which in this case was the excellent Adam Greenberg-- and T2 looked pretty damn good on film. So let's start there.

    The T2 master was originally transferred in 2003 from a Super-35 IP. Prior to colorist Mark Nakamine performing the transfer at IVC, Lightstorm screened their preferred 35mm print of the film in the THX-certified screening room at the Lightstorm offices in Santa Monica. This completed transfer was then screened for and approved by Jim Cameron. This transfer master was comprised of the Theatrical Version (in seven 20-minute reels) plus a few more separate, compiled reels of Special Edition scenes IP.

    In order to take advantage of the full vertical "negative area" of the 1.78 HD format, the film (which was composed for a 2.35 aspect ratio) was transferred FULL-HEIGHT to a D5 4:2:2 HD master; that is, the film image that would normally take up the center 1920x816 portion of the 1920x1080 frame was stretched vertically to fill the full 1920x1080 frame, thus maximizing the use of the HD storage format. In normal usage, the film would have been just transferred in its original aspect ratio that would fit horizontally into the HD frame, with black letterboxing above and below. Doing a full-height transfer means that there are 1080 lines of resolution used in storing the image, rather than just 816 lines with the rest being black letterboxing. So the good news is that there is more image resolution; the bad news is that it means that the master has to be reformatted to the normal letterboxed 2.35 aspect ratio whenever it needs to be used. You cannot use the original transfer master directly. Fortunately, because it is digital and theoretically has no generational loss (other than from the reformat scaling itself), the image quality should not deteriorate significantly when creating a compression master.

    From this 24psF full-height transfer master, comprised of 4 tapes (3 for the original Theatrical Version, plus 1 for the SE/ESE scenes), I created an additional pair of full-height masters: a 3-tape edited master of the Special Edition, and an ESE/Omitted Scenes edited master which consisted of the "T-1000 Searching John's Room" and "Future Coda" ending. These edited masters were digitally edited from the original Theatrical and SE Scenes transfer masters, so there was no generational loss. So now we have a total of seven final D5 tapes: a 3-part Theatrical master, a 3-part SE master, and an ESE/Omitted Scenes master, which are the current archival video masters for the film. All home video releases from the past six years were created from reformatted dubs/clones of these approved masters.

    Also note that these masters have what is called SEGMENTED timecode, which means that the timecode on the tape is only continuous on each individual tape. So the first tape has Hour 1 timecode (the feature starts at 1:00:00:00) and comprises film reels 1-3, the second tape starts at Hour 2, etc. The significance here is that the timecodes on the tapes are NOT continuous throughout the whole film, since the reels 1-3 combined never add up to exactly 1 hour... it will usually be shorter (which means a gap in timecode when you string the film together) but may also be slightly longer than one hour (meaning there will be DUPLICATE timecode in that area). This will get addressed when the compression masters are made.

    It's at this point where we did the manual dirt cleanup to the feature masters at Fotokem in late 2008. This process entailed doing a detailed QC list of dirt/scratch/hairs/watermarks along with timecodes for exactly where they are. The film then gets copied from the already-digital D5 tapes into a server, and an artist manually goes to each timecode on the list and paints out the offending items. For T2, at my request, they focused specifically on obvious artifacts like hair and scratches, and did NOT do any kind of automated grain removal or dirt removal. These processes do exist and are often used --like the "Dust and Scratches" filter in Photoshop-- but they are somewhat indiscriminate, since fine detail or grain may be mistaken by the system for dirt or scratches... which is why I specifically asked them not to use such tools on the T2 master, what with all of the sparks and explosion debris, etc. So after this labor is done, the feature is laid back out to a new set of D5 tapes, and we did some spot-checking by going to various spots in the master that were listed on the timecode dirt list and toggling between the before-cleanup and after-cleanup versions to make sure the work was done. This also made it possible for us to insure that no automated grain remove or noticeable noise reduction was done to the image, since this would show up when toggling. It's an asymptotic process in that once you get rid of the large dirt, the medium dirt starts standing out, and then when you get rid of the medium dirt, the small dirt is more noticeable, etc. We even went back and did some more manual work to certain areas for that very reason. Obviously, this gets pretty subjective, but what you do is the most you can do with the budget and time allotted.

    Once the manual dirt work was completed on these these full-height masters, a set of continuous-timecode, reformatted compression masters are made for DVD and Blu-ray use. This means that the full-height image is run through a high-quality scaler to squeeze it vertically to the correct letterboxed aspect ratio, and the laid back onto a new HD D5 tape with the letterboxing. At the same time, a new timecode track is added so that the film has continuous timecode from start to finish, which is very important if you're synching things like PiP and text data to the feature. In some cases, if a movie is not too long, it can be laid off onto a single longplay D5 master (not the case with all of T2, of course). In our case, we had a single longplay Theatrical master, a two-part longplay SE master, and a short ESE/Omitteds master. These are the D5s that went to the authoring facility (in the case of the Skynet Edition, it was Blink Digital Studios in Burbank) for encoding.

    The original plan was to use the AVC codec, but a lot of factors weighed in on this... one of which was the fact that in Blu-ray, in order to do Picture-in-Picture, both the primary (feature) video stream and the secondary (PiP) video stream need to be encoded using the same codec. Also, the amount of features we were trying to put on this single disc was a LOT --seamless branching of three versions, all of the audio tracks, etc. -- and most of it had to be in sync with the film, which means we could not put it off on a separate disc, even if the studio had agreed to do a second disc. Here's what Drew Hunstman, Senior Director of Tech Ops at Blink Digital where we did the authoring and compression, had to say about the codec issue:

    "Our workflow is a pretty typical one for BD: capture a source file in 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 in V210 codec via Kona3 cards, using a slight NR at this point, if necessary; dither the color space into the appropriate YUV format; make a few encode tests based on calculated bit rates, adjust filters, tweak specific scenes as needed and encode; lather, rinse, and repeat until the final encode looks as good as possible based on client recommendations and bit rate usage calculations.

    "The VC-1 choice was based on how the PiP looked in AVC, which was poor and in VC-1 which look far better. If we had used the AVC, to get a passable look for the PiP, the feature bitrate would have been a few points lower. As you know it is a balancing act making all the parts and pieces look the best possible while optimizing bit rates and still fitting them all in the BD box."

    One thing I noticed about the comments regarding the picture quality on the forum was that most of the negative comments came first from the UK, where the European disc was being reviewed. The later comments that were a lot more positive seem to come when the US Domestic version was reviewed. This makes sense in the light of the fact that the International versions had a lower feature compression rate than the domestic, based on the greater number of languages that had to be accommodated on the international versions. Here's Drew's take on the disparity between the domestic and international encodes:

    "The source, while good, was a D5 <4:2:2> not HDSR <4:4:4>, which a great many BD disks have for source material and can be superior in quality. Some discs like Ratatouille were processed directly from DPX files and so the source quality is even better than an HDSR. The European encode and the Domestic encode used the same source files captured from tape, the same pre-filtering and a moderate NR applied, but the 5 Mbps is making the greatest difference. Keep in mind that the amount of content on either disk kept the bit rate lower than many other discs on the market and the Euro was lower still.

    "There is some NR applied at the capture point and some applied at the encode point. This is to strike a balance between the amount of grain that the encoder has to deal while maintaining picture integrity. We have found, as many other have, if we slightly reduce grain at the capture, then we need FAR less at encode point. And we do use the Digital Vision NR for some of this.

    "In short, the picture differential between the Euro and Domestic is only about 5Mbps, however with the low bit rates due to the amount of content this makes a greater difference.
    If the overall bit rates were higher and we had the same 5Mb differential the picture would vary somewhat less. Figure that the lower the bit rate, the greater percentage of the picture quality 5Mbs represents. It is about a 6% drop…using present settings. If the overalls were higher, the 5Mbs would be a less percentage drop in quality between the two."

    Okay, so as I understand it, this means that a certain amount of digital noise reduction was applied during the precompression process --not as a creative decision, but in order to hit the target bitrates, which were determined by how much material the studio wanted to include on the disc. We specifically had the feature encoded twice at different rates to best accommodate the differeing amounts of content for the Domestic and International versions. Given that, I think we did a pretty good job.

    The Geneon disc, which was made from the same transfer master (but did not have the added manual dirt fixes as the Skynet Edition), was able to be encoded in AVC and at a higher bitrate because it did not have to include multiple versions of the film or as many languages on a single disc, and also did not have PiP or other such features. The inclusion of the standard-def featurettes in the Geneon versions still takes up a lot less room than including branched HD footage and PiP and BD-Live and all of the stuff that's on the Skynet Edition, so the Geneon version was able to do a higher bitrate. The rule of thumb for compression is pretty straightforward: the more detail you want to preserve, the higher the bitrate has to be. The challenge --and the art-- of compression is to find the best balance, where you get the maximum quality in the minimum amount of space. This all comes down to how much content is going to be included on the disc. And as I've noted before, the studios try to balance how much they put on the disc in terms of new features (and the costs for doing so) against the sales projections of how many more or less they will sell if those additional features are not included. And most indicators --like the sales of SuperBit DVDs-- show that folks will choose feature-laden discs over movie-only discs even if they are technically at a higher bitrate.

    Can we do better in the future? Most likely. The digital technology gets better and more efficient as time goes on, and hopefully next time the film will be retransferred to a 4:4:4 HDcamSR, or better yet, scanned at 2K from the original neg and restored digitally. And if we're lucky, we'll be able to do more than one disc and keep the feature at a higher bitrate while not sacrificing other features. If we're REALLY lucky, we'll have those multilayer discs with hundreds of gigabytes of storage on a single discs and no one will have excuses not to have the best quality encodes possible...

    Does this make the Skynet Edition worth your purchase? Only you can decide that for yourselves. All I can do is try my best (when given the opportunity) to create compelling content to complement the film and to try to make sure the film looks and sounds as best it can within the parameters of the space available.

  4. #704
    Eyes Wide Hutt
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Im Van Lings Forum wurde eine große Stellungnahme Re: Noise Reduction geposted. Da der Forum gerade irgendwie Probleme macht, hier der gesamte Text nochmal:

    Let's start with some history...

    Note that T2 was shot in Super-35, which means it used a full-aperture 35mm film frame (with image exposed full-width, sprockets-to-sprockets, rather than losing over 10% of the image width to a soundtrack area as in the Academy aperture). However, because it's composed for a 2.35 aspect ratio, it's only using the center 57% of the available negative area for active, composed picture. The rest is available for recomposition in postproduction or when doing 4x3 video transfers (which are largely obsolete these days due to HD). This would lead to the obvious charge of a grainier picture than films not shot in this format, but while this charge is mathematically true, the quality of the image all depends on how good your filmmakers are --particularly the DP, which in this case was the excellent Adam Greenberg-- and T2 looked pretty damn good on film. So let's start there.

    The T2 master was originally transferred in 2003 from a Super-35 IP. Prior to colorist Mark Nakamine performing the transfer at IVC, Lightstorm screened their preferred 35mm print of the film in the THX-certified screening room at the Lightstorm offices in Santa Monica. This completed transfer was then screened for and approved by Jim Cameron. This transfer master was comprised of the Theatrical Version (in seven 20-minute reels) plus a few more separate, compiled reels of Special Edition scenes IP.

    In order to take advantage of the full vertical "negative area" of the 1.78 HD format, the film (which was composed for a 2.35 aspect ratio) was transferred FULL-HEIGHT to a D5 4:2:2 HD master; that is, the film image that would normally take up the center 1920x816 portion of the 1920x1080 frame was stretched vertically to fill the full 1920x1080 frame, thus maximizing the use of the HD storage format. In normal usage, the film would have been just transferred in its original aspect ratio that would fit horizontally into the HD frame, with black letterboxing above and below. Doing a full-height transfer means that there are 1080 lines of resolution used in storing the image, rather than just 816 lines with the rest being black letterboxing. So the good news is that there is more image resolution; the bad news is that it means that the master has to be reformatted to the normal letterboxed 2.35 aspect ratio whenever it needs to be used. You cannot use the original transfer master directly. Fortunately, because it is digital and theoretically has no generational loss (other than from the reformat scaling itself), the image quality should not deteriorate significantly when creating a compression master.

    From this 24psF full-height transfer master, comprised of 4 tapes (3 for the original Theatrical Version, plus 1 for the SE/ESE scenes), I created an additional pair of full-height masters: a 3-tape edited master of the Special Edition, and an ESE/Omitted Scenes edited master which consisted of the "T-1000 Searching John's Room" and "Future Coda" ending. These edited masters were digitally edited from the original Theatrical and SE Scenes transfer masters, so there was no generational loss. So now we have a total of seven final D5 tapes: a 3-part Theatrical master, a 3-part SE master, and an ESE/Omitted Scenes master, which are the current archival video masters for the film. All home video releases from the past six years were created from reformatted dubs/clones of these approved masters.

    Also note that these masters have what is called SEGMENTED timecode, which means that the timecode on the tape is only continuous on each individual tape. So the first tape has Hour 1 timecode (the feature starts at 1:00:00:00) and comprises film reels 1-3, the second tape starts at Hour 2, etc. The significance here is that the timecodes on the tapes are NOT continuous throughout the whole film, since the reels 1-3 combined never add up to exactly 1 hour... it will usually be shorter (which means a gap in timecode when you string the film together) but may also be slightly longer than one hour (meaning there will be DUPLICATE timecode in that area). This will get addressed when the compression masters are made.

    It's at this point where we did the manual dirt cleanup to the feature masters at Fotokem in late 2008. This process entailed doing a detailed QC list of dirt/scratch/hairs/watermarks along with timecodes for exactly where they are. The film then gets copied from the already-digital D5 tapes into a server, and an artist manually goes to each timecode on the list and paints out the offending items. For T2, at my request, they focused specifically on obvious artifacts like hair and scratches, and did NOT do any kind of automated grain removal or dirt removal. These processes do exist and are often used --like the "Dust and Scratches" filter in Photoshop-- but they are somewhat indiscriminate, since fine detail or grain may be mistaken by the system for dirt or scratches... which is why I specifically asked them not to use such tools on the T2 master, what with all of the sparks and explosion debris, etc. So after this labor is done, the feature is laid back out to a new set of D5 tapes, and we did some spot-checking by going to various spots in the master that were listed on the timecode dirt list and toggling between the before-cleanup and after-cleanup versions to make sure the work was done. This also made it possible for us to insure that no automated grain remove or noticeable noise reduction was done to the image, since this would show up when toggling. It's an asymptotic process in that once you get rid of the large dirt, the medium dirt starts standing out, and then when you get rid of the medium dirt, the small dirt is more noticeable, etc. We even went back and did some more manual work to certain areas for that very reason. Obviously, this gets pretty subjective, but what you do is the most you can do with the budget and time allotted.

    Once the manual dirt work was completed on these these full-height masters, a set of continuous-timecode, reformatted compression masters are made for DVD and Blu-ray use. This means that the full-height image is run through a high-quality scaler to squeeze it vertically to the correct letterboxed aspect ratio, and the laid back onto a new HD D5 tape with the letterboxing. At the same time, a new timecode track is added so that the film has continuous timecode from start to finish, which is very important if you're synching things like PiP and text data to the feature. In some cases, if a movie is not too long, it can be laid off onto a single longplay D5 master (not the case with all of T2, of course). In our case, we had a single longplay Theatrical master, a two-part longplay SE master, and a short ESE/Omitteds master. These are the D5s that went to the authoring facility (in the case of the Skynet Edition, it was Blink Digital Studios in Burbank) for encoding.

    The original plan was to use the AVC codec, but a lot of factors weighed in on this... one of which was the fact that in Blu-ray, in order to do Picture-in-Picture, both the primary (feature) video stream and the secondary (PiP) video stream need to be encoded using the same codec. Also, the amount of features we were trying to put on this single disc was a LOT --seamless branching of three versions, all of the audio tracks, etc. -- and most of it had to be in sync with the film, which means we could not put it off on a separate disc, even if the studio had agreed to do a second disc. Here's what Drew Hunstman, Senior Director of Tech Ops at Blink Digital where we did the authoring and compression, had to say about the codec issue:

    "Our workflow is a pretty typical one for BD: capture a source file in 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 in V210 codec via Kona3 cards, using a slight NR at this point, if necessary; dither the color space into the appropriate YUV format; make a few encode tests based on calculated bit rates, adjust filters, tweak specific scenes as needed and encode; lather, rinse, and repeat until the final encode looks as good as possible based on client recommendations and bit rate usage calculations.

    "The VC-1 choice was based on how the PiP looked in AVC, which was poor and in VC-1 which look far better. If we had used the AVC, to get a passable look for the PiP, the feature bitrate would have been a few points lower. As you know it is a balancing act making all the parts and pieces look the best possible while optimizing bit rates and still fitting them all in the BD box."

    One thing I noticed about the comments regarding the picture quality on the forum was that most of the negative comments came first from the UK, where the European disc was being reviewed. The later comments that were a lot more positive seem to come when the US Domestic version was reviewed. This makes sense in the light of the fact that the International versions had a lower feature compression rate than the domestic, based on the greater number of languages that had to be accommodated on the international versions. Here's Drew's take on the disparity between the domestic and international encodes:

    "The source, while good, was a D5 <4:2:2> not HDSR <4:4:4>, which a great many BD disks have for source material and can be superior in quality. Some discs like Ratatouille were processed directly from DPX files and so the source quality is even better than an HDSR. The European encode and the Domestic encode used the same source files captured from tape, the same pre-filtering and a moderate NR applied, but the 5 Mbps is making the greatest difference. Keep in mind that the amount of content on either disk kept the bit rate lower than many other discs on the market and the Euro was lower still.

    "There is some NR applied at the capture point and some applied at the encode point. This is to strike a balance between the amount of grain that the encoder has to deal while maintaining picture integrity. We have found, as many other have, if we slightly reduce grain at the capture, then we need FAR less at encode point. And we do use the Digital Vision NR for some of this.

    "In short, the picture differential between the Euro and Domestic is only about 5Mbps, however with the low bit rates due to the amount of content this makes a greater difference.
    If the overall bit rates were higher and we had the same 5Mb differential the picture would vary somewhat less. Figure that the lower the bit rate, the greater percentage of the picture quality 5Mbs represents. It is about a 6% drop…using present settings. If the overalls were higher, the 5Mbs would be a less percentage drop in quality between the two."

    Okay, so as I understand it, this means that a certain amount of digital noise reduction was applied during the precompression process --not as a creative decision, but in order to hit the target bitrates, which were determined by how much material the studio wanted to include on the disc. We specifically had the feature encoded twice at different rates to best accommodate the differeing amounts of content for the Domestic and International versions. Given that, I think we did a pretty good job.

    The Geneon disc, which was made from the same transfer master (but did not have the added manual dirt fixes as the Skynet Edition), was able to be encoded in AVC and at a higher bitrate because it did not have to include multiple versions of the film or as many languages on a single disc, and also did not have PiP or other such features. The inclusion of the standard-def featurettes in the Geneon versions still takes up a lot less room than including branched HD footage and PiP and BD-Live and all of the stuff that's on the Skynet Edition, so the Geneon version was able to do a higher bitrate. The rule of thumb for compression is pretty straightforward: the more detail you want to preserve, the higher the bitrate has to be. The challenge --and the art-- of compression is to find the best balance, where you get the maximum quality in the minimum amount of space. This all comes down to how much content is going to be included on the disc. And as I've noted before, the studios try to balance how much they put on the disc in terms of new features (and the costs for doing so) against the sales projections of how many more or less they will sell if those additional features are not included. And most indicators --like the sales of SuperBit DVDs-- show that folks will choose feature-laden discs over movie-only discs even if they are technically at a higher bitrate.

    Can we do better in the future? Most likely. The digital technology gets better and more efficient as time goes on, and hopefully next time the film will be retransferred to a 4:4:4 HDcamSR, or better yet, scanned at 2K from the original neg and restored digitally. And if we're lucky, we'll be able to do more than one disc and keep the feature at a higher bitrate while not sacrificing other features. If we're REALLY lucky, we'll have those multilayer discs with hundreds of gigabytes of storage on a single discs and no one will have excuses not to have the best quality encodes possible...

    Does this make the Skynet Edition worth your purchase? Only you can decide that for yourselves. All I can do is try my best (when given the opportunity) to create compelling content to complement the film and to try to make sure the film looks and sounds as best it can within the parameters of the space available.

  5. #705
    Vote for the Wurst!
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Ein so interessanter Text darf gerne zweimal abgedruckt werden. Vielen Dank!

    Nun wird mir einiges klarer. Trotzdem kann man immer noch bemängeln, dass an dem einen oder anderen Punkt des capturing oder encoding zuviel noise reduction zugefügt wurde.

    Die japanische Blu-Ray mit dem AVC-Codec und höherer Bitrate aber ohne das händische Clean-Up werde ich somit mit Sicherheit behalten.

  6. #706
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    kann jemand, der den text gelesen hat, kurz zusammenfassen, wieso für die BD nicht der - offenbar bessere - transfer der HD DVD übernommen worden ist?

  7. #707
    Schweizer Patriot :)
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Sehr interessanter Text. Van Ling at his best wie immer

    Nun würde mich aber ein Bildvergleich zwischen US Disc und Euro Disc sehr interessieren.
    Würde mich echt interessieren wie gross der Unterschied ist.

    Bisher gabs ja leider keine Vergleichsshots der beiden Skynet Editionen.
    DAS wäre mal hochinteressant.

    Denn die im Caps-a-holic vergleich verwendete Skynet Edition war ja ebenfalls die US.
    Vielleicht auch daher der nur leichtere Unterschied zur HD-DVD. Ich hab mit meiner noch keinen direktvergleich zur HD-DVD gemacht.

    @Paulmayer

    Die HD-DVD hat keinen besseren Transfer. Seit 2003 wird immer der gleiche Ausgangstransfer verwendet.
    Für die Skynet Edition wurde sogar ein Cleanup von Kratzern etc gemacht.

    Die Rauschunterdrückung ist hier das Problem. Und die geschah laut Van Lings langem Text erst im Authoringstudio. Und die Europa Disc hat noch mal weniger Details wegen der tieferen Bitrate. Da die Gesamtbitrate nicht so hoch ist wirkt sich die tiefere Bitrate der Euro-Disc eben noch mal zusätzlich aus. Bei höherer Gesamt-Bitrate würde sich der Unterschied zur US nicht so auswirken.

    Hier der entscheidende Text aus dem grossen Beitrag:
    "There is some NR applied at the capture point and some applied at the encode point. This is to strike a balance between the amount of grain that the encoder has to deal while maintaining picture integrity. We have found, as many other have, if we slightly reduce grain at the capture, then we need FAR less at encode point. And we do use the Digital Vision NR for some of this."

    "In short, the picture differential between the Euro and Domestic is only about 5Mbps, however with the low bit rates due to the amount of content this makes a greater difference.
    If the overall bit rates were higher and we had the same 5Mb differential the picture would vary somewhat less. Figure that the lower the bit rate, the greater percentage of the picture quality 5Mbs represents. It is about a 6% drop…using present settings. If the overalls were higher, the 5Mbs would be a less percentage drop in quality between the two."

    Okay, so as I understand it, this means that a certain amount of digital noise reduction was applied during the precompression process --not as a creative decision, but in order to hit the target bitrates, which were determined by how much material the studio wanted to include on the disc.
    Geändert von DVD Schweizer (17.06.09 um 10:00:01 Uhr)

  8. #708
    Tongue Shaver
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Zitat Zitat von Stefan Paulmayer Beitrag anzeigen
    kann jemand, der den text gelesen hat, kurz zusammenfassen, wieso für die BD nicht der - offenbar bessere - transfer der HD DVD übernommen worden ist?
    Es wurde laut Van Ling derselbe Transfer als Ausgangsmaterial verwendet. Aber für die Skynet wurden noch in Handarbeit Schmutz und Haare an einigen Stellen retouchiert, und dann das ganze an einen Authoring-Service zur Erstellung von zwei BD-Encodings (für die US- und die Euro-Verison) übergeben. Dieses Authoring-Haus hat vor dem Encoding eine "moderate" Filterung vorgenommen, um eine bessere Komprimierbarkeit zu erreichen. An dieser Stelle ist offenbar das Problem.

    Interessant ist, daß der Text nur auf die japanische Version eingeht, nicht aber auf die Studio-Canal-Version, die fast diesselbe durchschnittliche Bitrate hat wie die Skynet. Das zeigt aus meiner Sicht, daß beim Encoding kein optimaler Job gemacht wurde. Zugute halten muß man allerdings, daß der Job durch das Zusatzmaterial (PiP, Branching) natürlich schwieriger ist, da die Bit-Allocation komplizierter ist.

    Interessieren würde mich mal ein Bildvergleich zwischen der Euro- und US-Skynet.

  9. #709
    computer...end program
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Zitat Zitat von Stefan Paulmayer Beitrag anzeigen
    kann jemand, der den text gelesen hat, kurz zusammenfassen, wieso für die BD nicht der - offenbar bessere - transfer der HD DVD übernommen worden ist?
    - Aufgrund der vielen Extras und der enthaltenen 3 Filmversionen mußten Kompromisse an den vorhandenen Platz gemacht werden.

    - VC-1 (statt AVC) wurde verwendet, da das Ergebnis in Zusammenhang mit den Extras (u.a. PiP) besser aussah.

    - Die europäische Version mußte wegen der zusätzlichen Sprachen etwas mehr datenreduziert werden.

  10. #710
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Kurz ne andere Frage... In Deutschland ist -so weit ich weiß- nie eine Box der alten Terminator-Trilogie erschienen. Ist damit eventuell noch zu rechnen oder ist das aus rechtlichen Gründen in Europa gar nicht möglich? In den USA gibt es ja bereits Box-Sets aber kann ja gut sein, dass das in Europa, weil hier jeder Film von einem anderen Studio produziert wurde, nicht möglich ist.

  11. #711
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Zitat Zitat von Mondkind Beitrag anzeigen
    Kurz ne andere Frage... In Deutschland ist -so weit ich weiß- nie eine Box der alten Terminator-Trilogie erschienen. Ist damit eventuell noch zu rechnen oder ist das aus rechtlichen Gründen in Europa gar nicht möglich? In den USA gibt es ja bereits Box-Sets aber kann ja gut sein, dass das in Europa, weil hier jeder Film von einem anderen Studio produziert wurde, nicht möglich ist.
    Eine Gesamtbox gab es - ist aber auch schon etwas länge her:
    http://www.ofdb.de/view.php?page=fas...=182&vid=83644
    Ob das in Sachen Blu-ray wieder so kommt weiß ich leider nicht.
    Dazu müsste dann auch erst einmal das Original VÖ werden.

  12. #712
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Zitat Zitat von bodybag Beitrag anzeigen
    Das ist jetzt meine 4. HD Version von T2.
    Klarer Sieger ist die französische HD DVD. Schöne Grainstruktur, gute Schärfe, Filmfeeling.
    Die Skynet Edition wurde schön glatt gebügelt, um dem neuen "'Schönheitsideal" von High Definition zu entsprechen.
    Die DE HD DVD von Kinowelt hat im Grunde genommen das gleiche Bild wie die FR HD DVD, aber manchmal macht sich die extrem niedrige Videobitrate von 11,8 Mbit bemerkbar. (FR HD DVD = 18,5 - Skynet Edition = 18,8)
    Die alte US BD kann man getrost vergessen, da sie kaum besser ist als die DVD der US Extreme Edition.
    Fazit: Chance nicht genutzt. Von den jüngeren Veröffentlichungen hat der DNR-Wahn nur bei The Good, the Bad and the Ugly und Dog Soldiers schlimmer gewütet.
    Habt Ihr auch die Möglichkeit die jap. Blu mit in den Vergleich aufzunehmen?
    Einfach die caps vom Beaver geht wahrscheinlich nicht oder?
    Aufgrund Eures (mal wieder sehr guten) Vergleichs und meiner "Augen" würde ich sagen das die jap. Blu irgendwo in der Mitte der franz. HD und der Skynet liegt.
    kippe was meinst Du? Du hast doch auch die jap. PE oder?

  13. #713
    Doombringer
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Hallo, habe die Suchfunktion bereits angeschmissen, aber nichts wirklich hilfreiches gefunden.
    Haeb eine Frage. Habe gerade mal ein wenig gestöbert und ein Bild bei Amazon.co.uk gefunden. Dort ist die Büste mit 6 Discs zu sehen. Die Deutsche wird aber doch wohl nur zwei Discs beinhalten, oder?? Wo ist denn da nun der Unterschied, oder ist das ein Fehler auf dem Bild. Wobei ja auf allen Discs das T2 Logo zu sehen ist oder zumindest ein Motiv des Films.
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Terminator-J...5275810&sr=1-3
    Würde mich sehr über eine kurze Info freuen. Komme mir nämlich als Vorbesteller der deutchen Box etwas verarscht vor ...

  14. #714
    Sithlord
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    @Rovers

    das von dir verlinkte Amazon.co.uk Angebot beinhaltet das US Set und dort wird es zusätzlich zur Blu-ray auch noch sämtliche Fassungen auf 5 DVDs dabei geben.
    Da auf der Blu-ray aber alle drei Fassungen bereits enthalten sind, ist es eigentlich nur unnötiges Beiwerk. Macht sich aber besser, wenn man "6 Disk Set" sagen kann.

  15. #715
    Doombringer
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    @ Silencer

    danke für die schnelle Antwort. Das stimmt. Das macht eigentlich keinen wirklichen Sinn. Dann bekommen wir hier ja prinzipiell doch das selbe wie die anderen.

  16. #716
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Zitat Zitat von morlock Beitrag anzeigen
    - Aufgrund der vielen Extras und der enthaltenen 3 Filmversionen mußten Kompromisse an den vorhandenen Platz gemacht werden.

    - VC-1 (statt AVC) wurde verwendet, da das Ergebnis in Zusammenhang mit den Extras (u.a. PiP) besser aussah.

    - Die europäische Version mußte wegen der zusätzlichen Sprachen etwas mehr datenreduziert werden.
    alles gut und schön.

    nur: die HD DVD ultimate edition hatte genau die gleichen interaktiven features, hatte auch nicht mehr sprachen als die BD und hatte sogar noch erheblich mehr extras

    was sie mehr hat, sind die 3 filmfassungen mittels seamless branching

    das ist für mich alles papperlapapp. fakt ist: die BD sieht schlechter aus. worum sie schlechter aussieht, ist mir als kunde, mal ehrlich, scheißegal. faktz ist für mich auch: es wurde an einem perfectly fine transfer (nämlich der HD DVD) herum gedoktort - ohne not

    zudem sind auf der BD (der europäischen) noch 4 GB frei

    so sehr ich van lingh schätze - seine ausflüchte betreffend die T2 BD interessieren mich herzlich wenig.

    die skynet BD ist schon verkauft, die ultimate HD DVD wieder bestellt...

  17. #717
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Zitat Zitat von Stefan Paulmayer Beitrag anzeigen
    was sie mehr hat, sind die 3 filmfassungen mittels seamless branching
    Was bedeutet "seamless branching"?

  18. #718
    Eyes Wide Hutt
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Zitat Zitat von DeafYakuza Beitrag anzeigen
    Was bedeutet "seamless branching"?
    Das ist ein nahtloses Verzweigen zwischen verschiedenen Filmversionen.

    Warum jetzt 4GB auf der EU-BR frei sind, interessiert mich auch. Hat man etwa für die Australien-Version (Universal) stärker komprimieren müssen und dann auch die EU-Version damit mit "erschlagen"?
    Geändert von TheHutt (18.06.09 um 11:49:47 Uhr)

  19. #719
    Schweizer Patriot :)
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    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Zitat Zitat von Stefan Paulmayer Beitrag anzeigen
    so sehr ich van lingh schätze - seine ausflüchte betreffend die T2 BD interessieren mich herzlich wenig.
    Das ist wieder mal typisch dich stefan.....
    sorry nicht böse gemeint.

    Und das sind doch keine Ausflüchte. Das ist eine ehrliche Antwort von ihm gewesen was passiert ist. Dass DNR eben leider im Authoringstudio dazugekommen ist etc.

    Auch wenn es dem Endverbraucher nichts nützt find ichs schön wenigstens zu wissen was genau abgegangen ist.

  20. #720
    bodybag
    Gast

    AW: Terminator 2 : Tag der Abrechnung Blu-Ray

    Zitat Zitat von *manics* Beitrag anzeigen
    Habt Ihr auch die Möglichkeit die jap. Blu mit in den Vergleich aufzunehmen?
    Einfach die caps vom Beaver geht wahrscheinlich nicht oder?
    Aufgrund Eures (mal wieder sehr guten) Vergleichs und meiner "Augen" würde ich sagen das die jap. Blu irgendwo in der Mitte der franz. HD und der Skynet liegt.
    kippe was meinst Du? Du hast doch auch die jap. PE oder?
    Ich will die Bibershots aus nachvollziehbaren Gründen nicht auf meiner Seite platzieren, deswegen hab ich mal ein externes File bemüht mit den Caps von
    JP Blu-ray, CA Blu-ray Skynet, FR HD DVD, DE HD DVD.

    http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c...4e75f6e8ebb871

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